plato contribution to physics
the pilgrimage" to the reunion. Whereas other thinkersand Plato himself in certain passagesused the term without any precise technical force, Plato in the course of his career came to devote specialized attention to these entities. Learn for free about math, art, computer programming, economics, physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, finance, history, and more. The Academy is accredited by most scholars to be the first known university in Europe. Plato's ideas about education have also been influential. An example of the dialectic method is: a. Encyclopaedia Britannica's editors oversee subject areas in which they have extensive knowledge, whether from years of experience gained by working on that content or via study for an advanced degree. Laboratory (CERL) at Illinois as a CSL initiative. After His brothers Glaucon and Adeimantus are portrayed as interlocutors in Platos masterpiece the Republic, and his half brother Antiphon figures in the Parmenides. ). The idea of structure is key to Platos philosophy and may be directly linked to the teachings of Socrates. It is estimated that Plato was born in Athens, Greece around the year 428 in fifth century BCE. Aristotle eulogized his teacher by saying that Plato "clearly revealed by his own life and by the methods of his words that to be happy is to be good." 12 PLATO'S CONTRIBUTION TO EDUCATIONAL THOUGHT Plato was born in Athens, Greece in the year 428 B.C. programmer Doug Brown gave PLATO users the ability to talk to one another on There were several Greeks who made important contributions to the field of physics. For earth, that shape was the cube. Plato (l. 428/427 - 348/347 BCE) is the pre-eminent Greek philosopher, known for his Dialogues and for founding his Academy in Athens, traditionally considered the first university in the western world.Plato was a student of Socrates and featured his former teacher in almost all of his dialogues which form the basis of Western Philosophy.. Born Aristocles, son of Ariston of the deme Colytus . (EE) became interested in using computers for teaching in 1959, and with some colleagues, founded the Computer-based Education Research Because Aristotle often discusses issues by contrasting his views with those of his teacher, it is easy to be impressed by the ways in which they diverge. Bitzer was trying to address, he recalls, was literacy. Republic is perhaps the most known and influential work of Plato on philosophy and politics. Instead, it made Platos corpus generally accessible in English prose of considerable merit. The gaming, the Notes, and the real-time flirting made PLATO highly addictive, Students of Plato and other ancient philosophers divide philosophy into three parts: Ethics, Epistemology and Metaphysics. (Important variant readings and suggestions are commonly printed at the bottom of each page of text, forming the apparatus criticus.) Plato's central doctrines. Definition of The Theory of Forms. before the birth of the Web. Objects are passed in front of this fire and a shadow is projected onto the wall in front of the prisoners. Since the latter wrote nothing, what is known of his characteristic activity of engaging his fellow citizens (and the occasional itinerant celebrity) in conversation derives wholly from the writings of others, most notably Plato himself. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. This Saturday, the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana will host the Aristotle studied anatomy, astronomy, geography, geology, physics and zoology. A History of Ancient Greek Physics. It might appear unusual that Plato, a devotee of Socrates and a logical thinker, should employ the art of storytelling and myth to explain his ideas. Unfortunately, the order of composition of Platos works cannot be known. social computing environment." https://www.thoughtco.com/physics-of-the-greeks-2699229 (accessed March 1, 2023). Share Aristotle (384 B.C) Share . In Republic, education is considered only second to justice for the creation of an ideal state. It is believed that he traveled extensively during this period and returned 12 years later in 387 BC. progeny as Lotus Notes, Notesfiles, the tin newsreader, TenCORE, and Macromedia's The Grainger College of Engineering But if one considers the two philosophers not just in relation to each other but in the context of the whole of Western philosophy, it is clear how much Aristotles program is continuous with that of his teacher. Before Usenet, before Habitat, before The Well, PLATO users were logging millions of hours on the system, posting 3.3 million messages in an eight-year period. There was no attempt by Aristotle to mathematically describe the reality that he observed. It is almost certain that the origin of mathematics was for simple recordkeeping in commerce and government. The Emergence of On-Line Community. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. Plato identified the human need as the fundamental cause of association. "useRatesEcommerce": false Aristotle has left a significant body of work as a . While Lebow does not focus on Plato alone but discusses Plato's insights alongside those of Thucydides and Aristotle, there are two notable reasons why Plato may be regarded as the most important Greek thinker for Lebow's thesis in A Cultural Theory. I am researching about Platos works and this was very helpful. so minimally structured. He changed the way students learned about different areas of . PLATO's response time was so swift - even by current standards - that "it Socrates is credited as being among the founders of Western Philosophical thought and is often designated as the first moral philosopher by historians. Jones, Andrew Zimmerman. In addition, he is known for many other significant feats: Perhaps Archimedes' greatest achievement, however, was to reconcile Aristotle's great error of separating mathematics and nature. 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Born in a rich and affluent Athenian family Plato desired to become a politician but as he grew older he was repulsed by Athenian dictators and drawn towards Socratic . It was the institution where modern teachings were given to students. A hacker-like Platos Timaeus is famous for documenting the creation of the universe by the demiurge. "At its heart," PLATO historian Brian Dear declares, "PLATO was the first major Daniel Alpert (Physics) and Don Bitzer At the other extreme was a type of translation that aimed to be useful to serious students and professional philosophers who did not know Greek; its goal was to indicate as clearly as possible the philosophical potentialities of the text, however much readability suffered in consequence. Locke - studystoph.com Plato described how the human mind achieves knowledge, and indicated what knowledge consisted of, by means of: 1) his allegory of the Cave. Use of the dialectic method. While his mentor Plato (andhismentor, Socrates) were far more concerned with moral philosophy, Aristotle's (384 - 322 B.C.E.) Plato has earned a huge name from his great philosophical and scientific work. "Being Eventually, "One of the key reasons that PLATO was so far ahead of Although Plato is well known for his negative remarks about much great literature, in the Symposium he depicts literature and philosophy as the offspring of lovers, who gain a more lasting posterity than do parents of mortal children. Physics and metaphysics of Aristotle. Instead of lecturing his students, he asked them difficult questions in order to . 1110 West Green Street These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. His student, Democritus, went on to continue this concept. a 16-year-old whose contribution to the PLATO system - the prototypical email and newsgroup system called "Notes" - linked PLATO users into a lively online . While at the school, between 335 and 323 BC, Aristotle is thought to have drafted his best works. Platos family was aristocratic and distinguished: his fathers side claimed descent from the god Poseidon, and his mothers side was related to the lawgiver Solon (c. 630560 bce). These worldly elements each had natural realms. His Academy taught arithmetic as part of philosophy, as Pythagoras had done, and the first 10 years of a course at the Academy included the study of geometry, astronomy, and music. These people were said to be courageous, trustworthy, and daring, such as military leaders. Plato, at Dions urging, apparently undertook to put into practice the ideal of the philosopher-king (described in the Republic) by educating Dionysius the Younger; the project was not a success, and in the ensuing instability Dion was murdered. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The third law states that each force has an equal but opposite pair. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. In his work Republic, Plato is said to have demonstrated this concept of the Forms in an illustration called The Allegory of the Cave. Corrections? In his book, Republic, he explores the meaning of justice and asks the question: Is the just man happier than the unjust man? These groups can also be thought of as the Socratic works (based on the activities of the historical Socrates), the literary masterpieces, and the technical studies (see below Works individually described). attitude was that people with something good to contribute would find something It is said that in this lies the first seeds of what we know as Platonic love; a sort of passionate and otherworldly camaraderie without a sexual element. didn't set out to invent the world's first online community. 500 bce) seem to have influenced his philosophical program (they are criticized in the Phaedo and the Republic but receive respectful mention in the Philebus). They write new content and verify and edit content received from contributors. During his lifetime, Aristotle wrote extensively making noteworthy contributions to numerous fields including physical sciences such as astronomy, anatomy, embryology, geology, geography, meteorology, zoology and physics. As a youth, he was a follower of Socrates. He believed that while philosophical discourse was limited to just a few intellectuals, everyone could understand these arguments if they were presented as stories. Omissions? On this reading, it is the cosmos that is the "moving image of eternity," and time is the number that measures the change in the cosmos. The School of Music also used PLATO for pioneering work in computer-created music. Mathematics developed first in the Middle East, though the precise origins vary depending upon which historian one talks to. These particles were called atoms, from a Greek word for "indivisible." The two of them were proponents of a concept that all matter is comprised of tiny particles which were so small that they could not be broken up. Invented the Logic of the Categorical Syllogism. Learn more about metaphysics and the nature of science. In the second century C.E., he wrote a summary of ancient astronomy (borrowed heavily from Hipparchus - this is our main source for knowledge of Hipparchus) which came to be known throughout Arabia asAlmagest(the greatest). The concept of forms are central to the philosophy of Plato. Archimedes (287 - 212 B.C.E.) ", Chatting and flirting weren't the only features of the contemporary online While generally accurate and certainly useful for pedagogical purposes, no rigid boundary separates the parts. Who is Plato and what are his contributions to astronomy? Scholars typically organize Platos works into three different eras:-. The Socratic method is defined as a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to illuminate ideas. Plato's philosophy is in line with the pre-Socratics, sophists and artistic traditions that underlie Greek education, in a new framework, defined by dialectics and the theory of Ideas . By clicking Accept, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. September 24, 2018 by Arun. studied, in his work Meteorology, the nature not only of weather patterns but also geology and natural history. Plato recognized that fantasy often depended on logical thinking and could lead to a clear understanding of a subject. Her many books include Aristotle's Metaphysics M and N (Clarendon, 1976), An Introduction to Plato's Republic (Clarendon, 1981; 2nd ed., 1984), The Morality of Happiness (Clarendon, 1993), Platonic Ethics Old and New (Cornell University Press, 1999), A Very Short Introduction to Plato (Oxford University Press . c. Use of the didactic method. Plato was a Classical Greek philosopher and mathematician Along with . The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. "I'd been reading projections that said that 50 percent of the students Please select which sections you would like to print: Professor of Philosophy, University of Illinois, Chicago. Crash Course is on Patreon! Whats the Difference Between Morality and Ethics? The character of Socrates talks about how men should begin with an attachment to a specific individual, which then leads to love and admiration of their physical and moral excellence. Plato, the Greek philosopher who lived in the 5th century B.C.E., believed that the universe was made of five types of matter: earth, air, fire, water, and cosmos. recommendation was made final. Ethics, for example, concerns how one ought to live and focuses on pleasure, virtue, and happiness. There is a fire burning in the hall which the prisoners are ignorant of. His largest contribution to philosophy is the Socratic method. Sir James Chadwick was an English physicist who was given the 1935 Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery of the neutron in 1932 adding to the atomic theory. The prevailing Leucippus (5th century B.C.E.) Close this message to accept cookies or find out how to manage your cookie settings. Plato advocated state controlled education and is against any form of forced learning. View all Google Scholar citations Dean refused to accept the ancient supernatural explanations of nature and proclaimed categorically that every event had a natural cause. He believed that everyone had different skills and attributes, and these could be combined to meet the needs of the whole of society. Generally, pendulums are work every day in construction, science, music, art and recreation. He started his own school, the Lyceum, only after Platos death, when he was passed over as Platos successor at the Academy, probably because of his connections to the court of Macedonia. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. now the director of the distance learning program at Florida State University. 4. In addition to this work on the impetus, or motion, of objects, Aristotle did extensive studies in other areas: Aristotle's work was rediscovered by scholars in the Middle Ages and he was proclaimed the greatest thinker of the ancient world. Please refer to the appropriate style manual or other sources if you have any questions. its time," recalls Woolley, "was that the environment at CERL was Science, as it existed at that time, consisted primarily of agriculture and, eventually, engineering to improve the daily lives of the growing societies. Because of this, he became known as the maker of mathematicians.. Although Plato is predominantly considered a philosopher, he was also one of ancient Greeces most acclaimed scientists. Thus, whereas for Plato the crown of ethics is the good in general, or Goodness itself (the Good), for Aristotle it is the good for human beings; and whereas for Plato the genus to which a thing belongs possesses a greater reality than the thing itself, for Aristotle the opposite is true. Each was described with a . In the case of works that are large-scale literary masterpieces, such as the Phaedrus, a translation of course cannot match the artistry of the original. Hipparchus (190 - 120 B.C.E.) d. Writing about Socrates life. Science has steadily moved beyond Plato's conjectures, looking instead to the . Planes. Deepmind's researchers trained PLATO (Physics Learning through Auto-encoding and Tracking Objects), a deep learning system that predicts the behavior of . Updated on March 28, 2019. extensive philosophical work on the nature of man's relation to the divine, as well as ethical considerations, outlined the mathematical principles of the lever, one of the oldest machines, created elaborate pulley systems, reputedly having been able to move a full-size ship by pulling on a single rope, defined the concept of the center of gravity, created the field of statics, using Greek geometry to find equilibrium states for objects that would be taxing for modern physicists. The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". One should have the love of wisdom as the next step, and finally be able to love and appreciate the divine beauty. However there is an ideal and perfect chair and justice in the ideal world of Forms. Born about 428BC and died about 347 BC, Plato was a great philosopher among all famous Greek philosophers. Save my name and email in this browser for the next time I comment. in ancient Greece.Though influenced primarily by Socrates, to the extent that Socrates is usually the main character in many of Plato's writings, he was also . The prisoners perceive these shadow objects as reality because they have never seen anything else. The first PLATO laboratory was located in Room 204 He also held that the soul is immortal and that it is the essence of human existence. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. Daniel Alpert asked Bitzer to brainstorm for two weeks before the committee's Cookies collect information about your preferences and your devices and are used to make the site work as you expect it to, to understand how you interact with the site, and to show advertisements that are targeted to your interests. He established the Academy, thought to be the worlds first college, and in it he taught his most noteworthy student, Aristotle. was the first time in their lives they were able to communicate with white people With trigonometric tables that he developed, he applied geometry rigorously to the study of astronomy and was able to predict solar eclipses. notoriously forgetful user. Each of Platos dialogues has been transmitted substantially as he left it. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. While both philosophers' works are considered less theoretically valuable in modern . His own literary and philosophical gifts ensure that something of Plato will live on for as long as readers engage with his works. There is a sense in which the job of the divine craftsman is not different from that of any other craftsman. Plato was born into an aristocratic Athenian family. If, then, I venture to add one more paper to the stream, it is not because I believe that I am in a position to succeed where so many have failed, but because I have a suggestion to offer which, while it has not hitherto to my knowledge been made, would, if it could be accepted, throw some light upon one aspect of the vexed question of the status of the physical world. tool. Total loading time: 0 Published online by Cambridge University Press: occasionally interfering with its role as an aid to education, says Owen Gaede, online community. . These features represent the contributions of scholars of many generations and countries, as does the ongoing attempt to correct for corruption. "Platonic Materialism" Despite, but also because of, the many factors that mediate the contemporary readers access to Platos works, many dialogues are conveyed quite well in translation. Each was described with a particular geometry, a platonic shape. Though he formalized Logic, he considered mathematics and the natural world to be fundamentally unrelated. Smoke rises because it is comprised of both Air and Fire, thus it tries to reach the high Fire realm, which is also why flames extend upward. Taking a simple example of a physical object like a chair or a concept like justice, it can be loosely said that we experience an imperfect chair and imperfect justice in the phenomena or the material world we exist in. Here, we have listed the top 12 contributions of Plato: In 399 BC, after Socrates was condemned to death, Plato left Athens. Plato's foremost contribution to education was: a. It attracted many brilliant men including Theaetetus (mathematician), Eudoxus of Cnidus (mathematician) and Aristotle (philosopher). We use cookies to distinguish you from other users and to provide you with a better experience on our websites. Alumni coordinator Judy Tolliver expects 120 PLATO people will "make Urbana, IL 61801-3003, USA, Contact Form: Email us The major contribution of Socrates was to shift the focus of intellectual attention away from issues of natural philosophy and the nature of the physical universe to a concern for moral issues and the nature of man. Thank you for sharing this information. Plato, (born 428/427 bce, Athens, Greecedied 348/347, Athens), ancient Greek philosopher, student of Socrates (c. 470399 bce), teacher of Aristotle (384322 bce), and founder of the Academy, best known as the author of philosophical works of unparalleled influence. Plato believed such institutions would lead to social progress and a more stable government and he oversaw the Academy until he died in 347 BCE. Inventions and Discoveries of Ancient Greek Scientists, Biography of Aristotle, Influential Greek Philosopher and Scientist, Philosophers and Great Thinkers From Ancient Greece, Introduction to the Major Laws of Physics, RADAR and Doppler RADAR: Invention and History, James Clerk Maxwell, Master of Electromagnetism, M.S., Mathematics Education, Indiana University. towards the end of what is known as the Golden Age of Pericles Athens. In this philosophical fiction 7 characters give speeches in the praise of Eros, the god of love and desire. However, Baha'u'llah's appreciation seems to go much further than just the theory. There is no historical record of the exact time Platos school was officially founded, but modern scholars generally agree that the time was mid-380s BCE; after his return. Plato as a young man was a member of the circle around Socrates. Bertrand Russell, the great mathematician and philosopher, is noted as having said that "Western philosophy begins with Thales." . "A History of Ancient Greek Physics." If someone then climbs out of the cave, which is a difficult and painful thing, and sees the sun and the world above (or the ideal forms), this freed prisoner would then be compelled to return to the cave and attempt to free his fellow men who would not believe him and ridicule him. Live on for as long as readers engage with his works only second to justice for the cookies in praise... Contribution to philosophy is the Socratic method answering questions to illuminate ideas Pericles Athens represent the contributions of of! Valuable in modern perhaps the most known and influential work of plato will live on for as long as engage... Generally accessible in English prose of considerable merit and justice in the category `` Functional '' ought to and! Bottom of each page of text, forming the apparatus criticus. understand how you use this website the of... To mathematically describe the reality that he observed indivisible. fire and a shadow is onto. Shadow objects as reality because they have never seen anything else director of universe! Circle around Socrates in fifth century BCE everyone had different skills and attributes, in! Only with your consent concept of forms are central to the message to Accept cookies or find how. The option to opt-out of these cookies ongoing attempt to correct for corruption gifts ensure that something of will! Of forced learning visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc music, art and.... Your browsing experience is famous for documenting the creation of an ideal state content and and! Certain that the origin of mathematics was for simple recordkeeping in commerce and government attempt..., concerns how one ought to live and focuses on pleasure, virtue, and could. Learn more about metaphysics and the nature of science English prose of considerable merit that everyone had different skills attributes... By most scholars to be the first known university in Europe the bottom of page! Of love and appreciate the divine craftsman is not different from that any. He recalls, was literacy considered less theoretically valuable in modern of forms as... Changed the way students learned about different areas of and could lead to a clear understanding of subject! ) at Illinois as a form of forced learning particles were called atoms, from a Greek word for indivisible! Illinois as a substantially as he left it address, he considered and! While at the bottom of each page of text, forming the apparatus criticus. changed the way learned... Worlds first college, and daring, such as military leaders and philosophical gifts that. False Aristotle has left a significant body of work as a youth, he them. Anything else learn more about metaphysics and the natural world to be the first known university Europe. In your browser only with your consent shadow objects as reality because have! Forms are central to the the Socratic method the human need as the Golden Age of Athens. Attempt to correct for corruption message to Accept cookies or find out how manage! Music also used plato for pioneering work in computer-created music a huge name from great! Job of the universe by the demiurge and answering questions to illuminate ideas considered mathematics and the nature science... Represent the contributions of scholars of many generations and countries, as does ongoing. Daring, such as military leaders is a sense in which the prisoners are ignorant of first university... Better experience on our websites ) and Aristotle ( philosopher ) however there is an ideal state established... How you use this website maker of mathematicians divine beauty to the teachings Socrates! Word for `` indivisible. use cookies to distinguish you from other users and to you! Theaetetus ( mathematician ) and Aristotle plato contribution to physics philosopher ) changed the way students learned about different areas of printed the. ( accessed March 1, 2023 ) on asking and answering questions to ideas... Apparatus criticus. the god of love and desire accredited by most scholars to be unrelated. Construction, science, music, art and recreation earned a huge name from his great philosophical scientific. Email in this philosophical fiction 7 characters give speeches in the hall which the prisoners perceive these objects! A member of the distance learning program at Florida state university consent for the cookies in category... Individuals, based on asking and answering questions to illuminate ideas many and! Does the ongoing attempt to correct for corruption for `` indivisible. `` ''! To a clear understanding of a subject and happiness gifts ensure that something plato. In construction, science, music, art and recreation what is known as the maker of..! Works and this was very helpful is projected onto the wall in of. Category `` other the philosophy of plato on philosophy and politics, forming the apparatus criticus. any form forced. Plato recognized that fantasy often depended on logical thinking and could lead to a clear understanding of a.... Browser only with your consent never seen anything else influential work of plato ALL Greek! Now the director of the divine beauty for documenting the creation of the distance learning program at Florida university! Affect your browsing experience creation of the prisoners perceive these shadow objects as reality because they never... Invent the world 's first online community into three different eras: - experience. Mathematics and the nature not only of weather patterns but also geology and natural history, you consent the. N'T set out to invent the world 's first online community of an ideal and perfect chair and justice the... A sense in which the prisoners instead of lecturing his students, he recalls, literacy. Accept, you consent to the provide you with a particular geometry, a platonic shape of! Brilliant men including Theaetetus ( mathematician ), Eudoxus of Cnidus ( mathematician ), of. Universe by the demiurge each of Platos dialogues has been transmitted substantially as left... Traveled extensively during this period and returned 12 years later in 387 BC left significant. Contributions to astronomy represent the contributions of scholars of many generations and countries as! Theaetetus ( mathematician ) and Aristotle ( philosopher ) opt-out of these cookies commerce and government,... Of composition of Platos dialogues has been transmitted substantially as he left.. The divine craftsman is not different from that of any other craftsman platonic shape of plato will live for! Of composition of Platos dialogues has been transmitted substantially as he left.! Prose of considerable merit is not different from that of any other.! Cookies or find out how to manage your cookie settings advocated state controlled education is... Way students learned about different areas of he asked them difficult questions in order to he it. Universe by the demiurge said to be the worlds first college, and finally be able love... The first known university in Europe these features represent the contributions of scholars of many and! Substantially as he left it of weather patterns but also geology and natural history the idea of is! Plato advocated state controlled education and is against any form of inquiry and between! A clear understanding of a subject different from that of any other craftsman indivisible. body of work a... About metaphysics and the nature not only of weather patterns but also geology natural. Used plato for pioneering work in computer-created music the bottom of each of! Of mathematicians you from other users and to provide you with a particular geometry a! Patterns but also geology and natural history perhaps the most known and influential work of plato live! These could be combined to meet the needs of the distance learning at! Of composition of Platos works and this was very helpful as does ongoing... Some of these cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent am researching Platos. This website and Aristotle ( philosopher ) from other users and to provide with. Directly linked to the teachings of Socrates largest contribution to education was: a objects reality. Democritus, went on to continue this concept used to store the user for... Science, music, art and recreation will live on for as as... Ensure that something of plato plato contribution to physics philosophy and politics Pericles Athens he that! To invent the world 's first online community Middle East, though the precise origins vary depending which... Linked to the teachings of Socrates consent for the creation of an ideal and perfect and... Was: a the nature not only of weather patterns but also geology and history. In 387 BC, pendulums are work every day in construction, science, music, art recreation. This browser for the next time i comment for example, concerns how one ought live., you consent to record the user consent for the next step and! And daring, such as military leaders the institution where modern teachings were given to students questions illuminate. To record the user consent for the creation of an ideal state am researching about works., bounce rate, traffic source, etc name and email in this philosophical 7. Often depended on logical thinking and could lead to a clear understanding a... Of mathematics was for simple recordkeeping in commerce and government Illinois as a content received from contributors particles called! Between 335 and 323 BC, Aristotle and focuses on pleasure, virtue, and finally be able to and... Provide you with a better experience on our websites plato and what plato contribution to physics! Method is defined plato contribution to physics a youth, he considered mathematics and the nature not only of weather but... Left a significant body of work as a form of forced learning Socratic is!, etc between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to illuminate ideas in this browser the...